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Proposed New Forum Permissions *feedback requested
Dec 12, 2009 at 02:08 AM
in None
Forums can have a read view level and a write view level
Threads can have a read view level and a write view level
To view a forum, you must pass the forum's read view level.
To add a new thread within a forum, you must pass the forum's write view level.
To view a thread, you must pass the thread's read view level and the forum it belongs to read view level.
To add a new post within a thread, you must pass only the thread's write view level (the forum it belongs to write view level does not matter)
This system, while flexible, has a few drawbacks; the biggest being it can be confusing. Your users create threads, not just forum admins, and they shouldn't have to deal with setting permissions when creating a thread, so we want to simplify this.
Proposed Simplification
To simplify permissions for the forums, we want to remove thread permissions. Then, you would only set permissions on forums and it should be much clearer how it works. The new permission system would be:
Forums can have a read view level and a write view level
To view a forum, you must pass the forum's read view level.
To add a new thread within a forum, you must pass the forum's write view level.
You could then view any thread that belongs to a forum you can view, and reply to any thread you can view. Simple =)
Impact of Change
Currently a thread can have a view level different from the forum it belongs to, which poses a problem for this change to go live. We don't want to remove the thread's permissions, as it may expose it to members who shouldn't see it, and we don't want to just delete the thread either..
Our plan then is to parse each forum, and if it contains any threads that have a higher read view level then the forum, to create a new forum with those permissions and move it there; this is perhaps easier explained with an example:
An example of a guild's forums:
- Officer Discussion read/write view level of 4
- all threads contained have read view level of 4 or below
- Guild Discussion read/write view level of 1
- contains a thread called officer info read view level of 4
- contains a thread called officer meeting read view level of 4
- contains a thread called moderator info read view level of 3
- rest of threads contain read view level of 1 or below
- Officer Discussion read/write view level of 4
- all threads still here as they had read view level of 4 or less
- Guild Discussion read/write view level of 1
- contains all the guild discussion threads that had read view level of 1 or less
- Guild Discussion - View Level 4 read/write view level of 4
- contains the threads officer info and officer meeting
- Guild Discussion - View Level 3 read/write view level of 3
- contains the thread moderator info
Feedback Requested
Of our active guilds, almost 80% are currently only using forum permissions; they have no threads which have higher view levels then the forums they are in; so for those guilds, this change likely won't cause any issues; their forums wouldn't be changed at all as they have no threads that have permissions set. However the other 20% do have some threads which have higher view levels then the forums they are contained in, so this change may affect you more.
In either case we would appreciate any feedback on this change, whether you like it or dislike it, and especially if you dislike the change if you have any suggestions or comments you could provide.
note: this is only a proposed change, if several users state they prefer to have thread permissions we will not go forward with the change
I'm happy with the current system and have had no complaints from my members. I enjoy being able to make threads visible to only members and some to the guests. Sometimes within a forum we have some threads that are for a certain rank only.
I think the simplification is a noble idea but by simplifying the permission system as you've suggested here you will force webmasters to make their forum structures more complex.
As Betinna says the current system works quite well and isn't that hard to sort out. I think it's fine as it is and have had no complaints from my Guild.
Oh, on another note, while only 20% of websites would be affected, making the impact to MMOGuildSites users as a -whole- minimal, the 80% who have a simpler system aren't being affected by the current system anyway and wouldn't, I think, care one way or the other if the new, simpler system came in (because, as you've stated, it doesn't affect them).
If this change were due to space concerns or additional risk of very unpleasant bugs, or the like, and making this change would -significantly- fix those issues, I'd be all for it. As it stands, though, the people who want it do use it, and the people who don't want it don't use it. Which, really, is how an optional feature (such as forum/thread permission) should work.
Thanks for the feedback so far guys.
I updated the blog post at the bottom to reiterate this is only a proposed change, and if several users say they would prefer to keep thread permissions the change won't go forward, instead we'll try to make the UI clearer for how thread and forum permissions work together.
Only thing i would like to see is sub-forums atm permissions and everything work well for my legion
I don't mind the change. I'm all for streamlining and simplification, especially for the end user.
erm.... I don't think anyone in Sanity's Edge, including me, has *ever* actually clicked the privacy levels for Read or for Write -- quite frankly because we don't allow non members to view any portion of the forums. I do have four forums -- probie members and 3 officer forums -- that are mod+, but even on those, the FORUM is the access level, and no one clicks individual thread stuff.
Wouldn't it be easier to in fact, get rid of that little privacy thing completely? Just not have it at all, I mean. If something's in an open forum, guests can view. If it's in an alliance forum, allies can view. If it's members, full members, officers -- etc? Just as the forums themselves are already set?
I agree with whoever above that said you guys do rock in your efforts to make things nice for us, though, that's for sure!
Oh, when I say I don't think anyone's ever clicked those privacy level dropdowns, I do mean it. I went through the forums randomly and no one's ever taken it off default -- BUT -- in order to read, say, Officer forum (the highest permission level) you must be at that, regardless of what the thread is set to, and you can't even see that forum if you're not at the right access level -- for instance, Officers see everything; Members see everything but Officer section; Probies see everything but Officer section and Probie section.... Am I makin sense? (it's 4 am).... All I'm saying is, it seems to work already, no need to do more!
Sounds good to me :)
I like that idea it safeguard's what could be considered private kin/guild bussiness away from pryin eye's but would give leader's more control over who see's what
Personally I don't see these changes affecting our site at all. We've already setup our forums in such a way that each category is based upon a set of rules. I found it very confusing early on to keep track of which threads were open to which players and constantly double-checking to ensure there was no accidental permissions that had one or two private threads left open.
So personally, I have no objections to the proposed changes as our system is already running on this general idea. However, I"m sure this would be a real nightmare for people who are using thread-based permissions to sort out and ensure their private information remains private if the proposed simplication were to go through.
While we're on the permissions discussion, would it be possible to add in some BBCode to be based upon permissions? Example
(rank=4)This is only Viewable by Rank 4(/rank), etc.
Sometimes in the middle of a thread something will come up that requires officer discussion. Typically we do a copy/paste into the officer forums to continue that thread of the discussion. Could be useful to be able to just notate a current post and have that reply only visible to appropriate ranks.
Though I guess from a programming stand point this could get even crazier with permissions.
I'd be all for simplification. So would the rest of the officers in my guild. Current system has already caused a little confusion with our members, so this would help that a lot.
As with others who have posted here, I also have tinkered with the perms as the current system was too simple already. As long as the new system won't break what I have already in place I don't mind what is done. But with that said, I must retain the authority to override it in order to maintain or construct the forum permissions to meet my kinships needs.
I like the idea of the proposed changes - while I have no problems, I have seen others create posts with permissions that perhaps should have been hidden to guests, all because they did not understand the permissions.
The main thing about forums that I would like to see is an ability to split threads up, as I know some good friends who have a phd in thread derails ;)
We use forum permissions on certain threads, but that is only because we cannot have sub-forums.
So for us, we either need the ability to set permissions on certain threads, or the ability (for the admin) to create sub-forums in any forum.
I'm all for the change, as setting permissions on a case-by-case basis, as with threads, is generally clunky and unnecessary.
But, as other people have pointed out, in some cases the ability to set thread permissions makes up for the lack of subforums.
So while simplification is good, subforums would be a nice thing to go with it.
I like the current system more, I do sometimes put threads in member forums that I don't want anyone to be able to edit/add to.
@MMO Guildsites: The proposed changes sound perfect, I never understood why the greater complexity existed.
@Kalborn: You can lock the thread.
I don't like fiddling with the permissions every time I post in Odins Leviathans forums. I'd prefer to just have one global setting for each area and be done with it. I know that this could possibly invoke more widely unread forums, but the fine-grained control offered now is just a bit much for people who come by & post once and a while. I support the new proposal idea.
Won't this greatly affect news forums?
On our site we have a guild and wow news forum that only officer's can make new threads in, but any member is able to reply to those threads.
Every time a new boss is downed or new game feature announced I'd rather not have 4 threads all appear at once, and thus all show up on the homepage news block.
I'm quite pleased with the current functionality of the permission system. I wouldn't be opposed to some simplification for people that don't want to deal with it though.
Could there be another setting in the ranks where "use default forum permissions" is a checkbox? Anyone of that rank would never see the pop-up menus when creating a new thread and those threads would always default to their parent forums permissions.
Personally I like things how they are. I like having options. and there have been occasions where I have upped the permission of just one thread.
Though I would not be upset with the simplification either, I would just rather not have a new forum for every permission set.
Keeping it simple is sometimes a good thing but for me, I find having the different levels much easier to keep track of who gets to read/write on each part.
If we are changing then ai think all officers chats/logs/forums etc... must be a t a level 5 or above so that only they can read it and if those officers wish the kinships to read a certain post then the officers can downgrade that single posting.
I would rather have a much more improved forum sections where we could have multiply forum areas with links to them from the 1st/2nd page. Ours have all the forum contents on the main page and it looks rather too much there.
Other then this, I love the whole MMOGulidsites stuff you are all doing and I would like to wish all of the team there a very Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year :)
Thanks again for all the feedback guys =)
After reading all of the comments and having some discussion with severed pinkies, we came up with a slightly different, and what we hope is a better plan.
Rather then force the simplification by removing thread permissions; we would instead add a new check box option to forums, "Allow threads within this forum to set additional view level permissions". Then, if you have that un-checked for your forum "General Discussion", any threads you create/edit within "General Discussion" would not show the thread permission options. If you check it they would, providing you the option to enable/disable this feature for only where you need it. (enabling/disabling this would only hide the permission options when adding/editing a thread, it would not undo any existing thread permissions you set on other threads within the forum)
We're still mulling out a few details for it and want to improve the UI for it more, but will likely post a new post about this in a week or so as the forums update is more complete and we know the system works well =)
I like it as it is. I want to be able to have certain threads for officer eyes only, not a separate forum for officers only. By having certain threads within a forum, there is a degree of security through having to search for those threads. That is why I am opposed to the change.
I would definately vote to keep the current system.
I have admin'd sites using NuleEvo and phpBB and didnt' have this level of flexibility.
This system is much more effective.
Being able to post and select who can read/reply to that thread is a great tool.
Please keep the current system in place.
I would opt for the "slightly different, and we hope better" plan you have in the comments.
Some guilds love transparency but want to keep a thread on topic. So they allow everyone to see it but only officers to post in it. Likewise I like to build a thread (like a guide) in the open so people can see it as I build it but not start responding to it in case I need the post space below my original post. With the added permissions we have here I can do that. Otherwise i need to lock and unlock or make it un-viewable until I am done.
I am sure there are lots of other examples. But that's my 2 cents. With the checkbox those people who do not utilize this functionality can just opt to not see it. I like this very much. Thanks 8 Toes!
This would work for Radiant Dark. We don't typically use different view or post levels in our forums as any particular post that we only want officers to see will be posted in those particular forums.
Though I would say that it doesn't bother me to have this functionality, I can see how it can cause some confusion. My guild is happy either way.
As I understand it, this would make my guilds lives much easier. We've got multiple forum levels and you have to remember to change the information every time you post a thread. That going away would make life much easier.
First off, I have to say it's fabulous to see how devoted to your users you guys are! Major kudos for your customer service :D
/ontopic: I think the plan you proposed in the comments (on dec. 13th, 7.51) would be perfect. Personally I would love to be able to turn it off, since we have our site structure built so that we don't _want_ any threads in any forum have a different read/write level than the forum itself. But having the option of turning it off or on would be ideal on all accounts!
@ 8 Toes: "After reading all of the comments and having some discussion with severed pinkies, we came up with a slightly different, and what we hope is a better plan."
This... is brilliant. BRILLIANT. I can tell you straight away I'll be activating it so that thread permission is possible, but this addresses the issue and keeps both sides happy. Kudos!
I currently like the system how it is, it is easy enough to figure and doesn't need any simplification what so ever.
As ayalessa said, this proposed change (the most recent updated one) will allow guilds to have it however they want. I have always believed if the thread should have a private read level then it should be in a private forum so stuff that should be private doesn't get out to the public on accident because a newer person doesn't understand the way the forum permissions work.
Put in the check box.
*gets my vote*